Curse

Tyla · May 10, 2009, 09:58 AM // 09:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

PvP players whine about overpowered skills, because they don´t want to be forced to bring specific counters to that skill.

Eh, have you noticed that winning a match in PvP brings you to different opponents, and those different opponents might have a different build that isn't guaranteed, meaning bringing specific counters to all of these variations is a lot worse in that area than PvE, where you're actually going against a guaranteed skillset that is incomplete 99% of the time, with a couple of heres-and-theres in variation with next to no decent counters against your own counters? (for example, Paragon mobs + Vocal Minority)

Quote:

Originally Posted by haggus71

If you think you could do better, learn to code, apply for the job, and do it yourself. Chances are you would be 10 times worse at it.

The thing is, we're throwing out ideas to help the game balance-wise, but not the coding we KNOW these people can do. Unless you think everyone with a creative mind and not much skill in the field should learn everything to do it.

Kashrlyyk · May 10, 2009, 11:44 AM // 11:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Eh, have you noticed that winning a match in PvP brings you to different opponents, and those different opponents might have a different build that isn't guaranteed, meaning bringing specific counters to all of these variations is a lot worse in that area than PvE, where you're actually going against a guaranteed skillset that is incomplete 99% of the time, with a couple of heres-and-theres in variation with next to no decent counters against your own counters? (for example, Paragon mobs + Vocal Minority)

When I watch GvG on observer, this is what most groups look like: 2 Warriors, 2 Monks, 1 Monk (smiter) or Necromancer, 1 Elementalist or Ritualist Flagrunner, 2 Mesmers or 2 Rangers.

So I do not see the described "variety" that PvP players have to face. Basically the used skills in PvP are set and you are actually surprised when someone actually deviates from it.

And about what you said about PvE, that is not something I can change, it is literally ANets fault, because they decided to focus balancing on PvP.

In fact the described situation is part of why PvE is so unbalanced. I rather have an acceptable AI and a randomly chosen set of skills on the enemies then overpowered enemies, where you have to know them in and out or you can´t enjoy the game.

Of course on the other hand the battles should not take minutes because there are quite a lot of them on your way through a mission or to an outpost. So definitely not easy to balance.
But the PvE enemies in EotN are a great start. But then they just had to give them the same stupid boni in HM and the fun is gone again.

Word of Healing: 5e 3/4c 3r At 12 heals 105 +83 Elite spell.
Reversal of Fortune: 5e 1/4c 2r At 12 "heals" up to 134 damage none Elite spell.

Wish Swiftdeath · May 10, 2009, 02:30 PM // 14:30

It is easier to just spam woh on recharge, if you do that with RoF nothing happens. RoF rewards skillful play.

As for GvG looking all the same: there are a set number of builds that are run because they are broken, we want more balance and so that we can play different builds.

Thank you for understanding

FalconDance · May 10, 2009, 03:19 PM // 15:19

I've read many good viewpoints and 'arguments' from both the PvP and the PvE aspects here (as well as a few not-so-well thought out views). Actually it was rather refreshing to see minimal flamage for a change.

This type of thread usually, I've noticed, ends with the PvP oriented folks screaming defensively how "easy" PvE and how challenging PvP is, so we PvEers should all shut up and accept whatever crumbs sprinkle on our tables silently. In four years, however, I've never noticed the game to be ridiculously easy, certainly not so easy that any given profession could waltz through, especially when supported by the AI brilliance of Monk Academy drop-out Alesia, aggro-happy Devona or flaming Orion. Yes, a well balanced and decently skilled team of real players could - and should be able to - conquer most areas, but individual professions do not have near the balance of skills enabling them to do so on their own. In fact, very early on, we were forced to resort to "cheats" to complete endgame - the infamous Titan quests - by starting out in Yaks Bend or further so we could tramp a larger team than four players to go beat up on the rather upset groups of (now) high level Charr on the other side of Surmia. I completed those quests on one character in the old days - ONE, and that was accompanied by friends, family and a hench healer (yep, Miss I-Wanna-Be-A-Tank Alesia herself).

PvPers want to see how "easy" PvE is? Take a character through Prophecies HM with Prophecies only skills. No cheating. No heros. No skills from other campaigns or expansion. No PvE only skills. Just what you get or purchase along the way. You can buy any skill you want as long as it's Prophecies or Core only. In fact, you could really prove yourself elite and only use the insignia and runes that were originally available. Go ahead. Take the challenge and see how easy PvE is now that skills have been changed to "balance" PvP.

Yes, skill changes affect PvE, usually negatively. The foe PvP faces is always level 20. They are comprised of dual classed professions from a pool of 10 professions in total. There are community 'approved' skill sets that are generally accepted as preferred (dare I say, "must-have and must-run"). You can, with relative precision, predict the energy and health resources and the armor resistance available to each in an effort to overcome said reserves.

The foe faced in PvE now range to level 32 or so (in HM). They have an enhanced energy and health regeneration as well as armor resistance. Especially in HM, they may be tri-classed rather than the dual-class to which players are limited. AI requires no thought recognition of skills usage nor reflex time, and so skill activation of the foe is also enhanced. The foe may run in groups of more than eight or fewer, may be separable into smaller groups (if in packs) or not. For instance, how many people have run into a group of six or more raptors in NM which has no Healers or Shadow Form but who are remarkably self-healing and damage resistant. (I would relish seeing a full party of assassins do the same - without the use of SF!) These may all be seen as challenges - as they should be - but instead of being given the skill sets from which to choose adequate or even superior defense, we must share the resource set with a completely different set of players for which these factors do not come into play. Yes, some skills are now separated. Yet most are not.

Now, I enjoy playing an RoJ Cryer with my mesmer. Heavens knows it's about the only way still a mesmer can get into a party! even after four years. But I am still forced to play with Alliance members (which is actually preferable for me since we all know each other's play styles, strengths and weaknesses) because I do not run the exact RoJ Cryer skill bar. The same applies to the HB monk. I run a modified build that works very efficiently - for me. Other parties toss me out on my ear because I do not run the latest PvXwiki vetted version. I have mixed emotions about being less-than-desired in general with my Healer. Most now prefer to take hero healers whom they can set with the pre-approved cookie cutter builds rather than a live Healer. Granted, there are some very bad Healers (and warriors and rangers and...and...and...), but not only is PvE bereft of equity in skill sets, now we are reduced to relying on (and obtaining/spending the gold to better outfit) further AI rather than the social game we originally had.

While I believe Factions brought some nice things to GW in general, I also believe it was the ruin of gameplay from a strictly PvE outlook by trying to marry the two styles. Nightfall attempted to 'fix' that with limited success.

Is PvE easier than PvP? Apples and oranges are both fruits, but they are not comparable except to say they are both fruit. PvP and PvE are both parts of GW but not the same except that they share the vast majority of skills, armor, weaponry, etc. while they do not share the same foe or even game environment. In an attempt to bring the two play styles, indeed the two separate games!, into accordance, Guild Wars has fatally erred. Yet they refuse to separate the two to the benefit of both.

DreamWind · May 10, 2009, 04:45 PM // 16:45

Oh my god there is so much garbage being spewed in this thread from so called "PvErs". I seriously considered getting into a massive quote war, but the post would be stupidly long and I don't have that kind of time right now. Lets just wait for the pitiful balance that is sure to come.

Back then · May 10, 2009, 04:48 PM // 16:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Oh my god there is so much garbage being spewed in this thread from so called "PvErs". I seriously considered getting into a massive quote war, but the post would be stupidly long and I don't have that kind of time right now. Lets just wait for the pitiful balance that is sure to come.

I wonder why people like this who are obviously at risk of high-blood pressure from being constantly frustrated at the game even play...

FalconDance · May 10, 2009, 05:00 PM // 17:00

Dreamwind, why do you consider what PvErs say "garbage" whilst what PvPers say (apparently) is not? Are we not allowed to have and express our opinions from the different viewpoint? Have you played the game as originally released or are you a PvP player solely or primarily?

Perhaps if you (and other PvPers) explained that/how you actually saw the game and skills from both aspects equally due to experience, there'd be less acrimony. Might even lead to a new understanding between the two game styles. But as it is, the 'arguments' tend to be presented from primarily PvErs and primarily PvPers with little apparent overlap.

Again, Anet has insisted on binding the two separate games together even though the only things they have in common is armor, weaponry and (most of) skill sets. Not even foe are held in common yet the skills used in both games are essentially the same with a few relatively weak ones being held in reserve for environmental players. Such is not whining or 'garbage spewing'. It is not balance. It is unfortunate fact.

Lishy · May 10, 2009, 05:04 PM // 17:04

FalconDance's post pretty much sums up guild wars best.

Greedy Gus · May 10, 2009, 05:58 PM // 17:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by FalconDance

Yes, skill changes affect PvE, usually negatively.

All PvP players ask for is a balanced game, which involves updates/tweaks to game formats as well as balancing all skills available to use. Your argument is essentially that a balanced game makes PvE more difficult, and then make a leap in logic that that difficulty is a negative effect caused by outside influences. The point is that PvP balance is the game's actual balance, because every side has a brain for attempting to maximize their winning chances. Having a problem with skill changes based on PvP concerns is having a problem with the game's true balance. As someone said earlier, PvE is essentially a puzzle to solve, and as long as it is solveable in a multitude of ways (hopefully fun), then there is no balance issue. I don't disagree with being annoyed by monsters who 'cheat' with energy, cast times, level, armor, etc. But those elite areas & hard mode were created for players looking for higher difficulty areas to 'solve', and are not necessary parts of general gameplay.

As far as your perception of PvPers primarily fiercely harassing PvE as "easy", I think it's in part coming from some insecurity (feeling threatened and exaggerating others' attack on your preferred playstyle) and probably also remembering more vividly posts by some more aggressive/ignorant people (that are on both sides of any issue).

DreamWind · May 10, 2009, 06:36 PM // 18:36

Ok fine I have some time now. Let's go.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

All classes should be able to play with a skill emphasis of choice and be able to contribute effectively to group success in a balanced game. That this is not true is proof GW is not balanced.

Wrong. PvE balance is not about all classes being able to play with a skill emphasis of choice and being able to succeed. The sheer facts of PvE are that some classes are not going to be as useful in some areas than other classes. That doesn't mean all classes can't be used however. In particular though some skills are not and SHOULD not be successful at all in some areas. In PvE you KNOW what you are going up against so you should bring specifically what is best for that area. Now if you are arguing that the classes are inbalanced you can focus on that, but you CAN'T say that everybody who brings any skillset they choose should be able to contribute effectively. If you bring a bad skillset, it is your fault you failed and not the balance of the game. Learn from your mistakes and try different things.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

I mean obviously I am only going to bring the stuff that counters that, so the rest of my characters, my main character, my preferred characters, they should just get and do nothing because GW doesn’t like a balanced game where you can bring and use any class and effectively and efficiently take part in play everyplace in the game.

I would argue that in PvE you CAN bring any class and be successful in any part of the game. I could roll any class and beat the game right now if I wanted to. The simple fact is some classes will not be as effective in some areas as others. Just because the community for some reason doesn't like mesmers or ritualists, has no bearing on the fact that mesmers or ritualists can easily roll through the game if they want to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

I am quite aware PvP is based almost exclusively on Ego; it is one of the reasons I don’t play it. And in PvP you do know within a day or so after each nerf everyone settles into the new best build nazi power zerg for pounding to the top.

Ego? LoL. The problem here is that PvP has been facing balance problems for quite some time. You clearly did not play PvP in times when the metagame was very good, such as late prophecies and mid factions. The Anet balancers have the idea that manually changing the game themselves is good, but the players being able to change it themselves through metagame evolution is not. What we have in PvP now is whenever Anet makes a balance change, they always screw it up so one build becomes so dominant that you are stupid if you play anything else. That is EXACTLY what will happen with this next update...mark my words on that. Ideally we want lots of builds where playerskill determines success, but Anet's philosophy does not allow it.
Now some people have said that this is what has trickled over into PvE, and maybe it has to some extent. The problem is IT ISN'T AS BIG OF A DEAL because

A. PvE can be beaten with any class and can even be soloed

B. Most PvE players don't care about balance whether you like it or not

In PvP everybody has to care about balance because if you see something inbalanced you are going to feel it hard and if you don't use it you will fail. In PvE if there is something inbalanced it contributes to your success because you can either use it yourself or ignore it completely. Do you ever wonder why PvE players almost 100% across the board call for buffs but never call for nerfs? It is because if something gets buffed they feel they can use it, but if something gets nerfed they feel it takes an option away. This is so far from the truth its sad. Things get nerfed because they were options that the player SHOULD NOT have. More on that:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

The AoE nerf was for PvP and to teach PvE players to chase foe like PvP players would react. The Minion Master nerf was to limit massing in PvP matches for GvG, AB, etc. Body blocking so that PvE players can’t maneuver in their environments as effectively as before, and H/H/Pets make stupid get stuck can’t attack glitches all for PvP.

It doesn't matter why these things were done...what matters is they NEEDED to be done in PvE and PvP. Old PvE minion masters were stupidly broken...any noob could use them to roll through the game. Same goes for AoE, where ele nukers could basically walk up to any large mob and with a tank could own the mob in about 5 seconds. Ok I'm exagerrating a little bit, but this just goes to my point that PvE players don't want ANYTHING nerfed even if it is for the good of the game. It was CLEAR that these things were bad for the game, yet there was epic whine over their nerfing. Even more on that:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

Further, you act as if the PvP/PvE skill variations are something that has existed since the beginning of the game. It has not. It just started. And since it started nothing has been done that makes PvE skills more effective for PvE players, the exact opposite has happened instead. PvE skills keep getting destroyed – even the ones that were PvE only and not supposed to be touched because PvPers never used them (Ursan, Seed of Life, Pain Inverter, etc.)

It just started? Haven't the skills been split for like a year now? Excuse me if I'm not keeping track of time. Either way it has been LONG ENOUGH for Anet to "balance" their PvE game. PvP players have known for quite some time that Anet has ZERO concept of balance, and PvE players are going to realize this painful fact as well. Instead PvE players are STILL blaming PvP for their problems, when they should really be putting the blame where it belongs...on the people who make the game.

And I LoL at your statement that Ursan shouldn't have been touched. It DOESN'T MATTER that PvPers didn't use it, and the fact that you don't see that means that you in reality don't want balance at all. It was CLEAR that Ursan was inbalanced...it allowed anybody with with no thought to what they were using whatsoever to beat nearly any area in the game. Ursan was the exact OPPOSITE of balance, because instead of Anet having to balance the classes properly, they just allowed anybody to use Ursan and FOREGO the entire idea of classes and balance. If you think Ursan in its old form was ok, you don't want balance...you want INBALANCE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

That is what GW nerfs are all about, preventing player opportunity and success any time they might occur.

No, they are about removing inbalanced options that shouldn't be in the game so the players have more balanced choices to consider.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

PvP players whine about overpowered skills, because they don´t want to be forced to bring specific counters to that skill. But PvE players should be fine with exactly that?? No, I want the same here. I want to be able to beat any area on both difficulties without being forced to take specific counters to the overpowered stupid enemies in that area, just a decent skill bar and a decent team build and player skill.

I'm sorry but this is sad. For starters, your statement that PvP players not wanting to bring specific counters is stupid on many levels and has been explained a thousand times over throughout these forums. PvP players (or at least TRUE PvP players) don't want rock paper scissors. You should be able to see this by now.

Secondly you are basically saying "I want to be able to beat any area on both difficulties bringing whatever I want". The thing people are going to have to see is that in PvE counters are the game, and in PvP counters are the option. Until PvE monsters have random skillsets or some sort of dynamic AI, this will always be true. We will always know what the PvE area brings and we will know what counters to bring. On the other hand bringing counters in PvP should be a strategical choice, but not the definite answer. It is called metagaming, and I encourage anybody who knows nothing about PvP to look into it. The idea is NOT to HAVE to bring a counter, but the idea is to have the OPTION to bring a counter in case the METAGAME calls for it. Bringing that option could result in failure as well.

The problem here is Guild Wars ever since Nightfall (arguably) has had one of two metas. Either a rock paper scissors meta or a meta where one build dominates so hard that there is no hard counter and people are forced to play it. Both are bad and both are Anet created. The players did not create this mess and I'm tired of people saying they did. The players simply choose the best options available to them...and if one option is so far better than any other option, it is Anets fault that option exists. To put into PvE terms...if one class is so much better than the others, it is Anet's fault. If you need a certain rank of a PvE skill or Ursan to play, it is Anet's fault. Etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

There is a lot they can do to Prot Spirit and Reversal of Fortune, both completly overpowered. But then they would have to look at everything else too. They are just lazy and that is why they don´t nerf both spells.

Lmao. I'm sorry dude but anything you say from here on out is ridiculous. I will respond to the rest of your post anyways just this once.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

When I watch GvG on observer, this is what most groups look like: 2 Warriors, 2 Monks, 1 Monk (smiter) or Necromancer, 1 Elementalist or Ritualist Flagrunner, 2 Mesmers or 2 Rangers.

So I do not see the described "variety" that PvP players have to face.

Already addressed this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

And about what you said about PvE, that is not something I can change, it is literally ANets fault, because they decided to focus balancing on PvP.

Ok let me get to the heart of my post now. I am going to let everybody in on a little secret. Are you ready? Here it is:

Anet did not split PvP and PvE skills so they could better balance both sides, they split them so the players on both sides would stop whining that the other side was getting in the way.

I'm glad the cat is out of the bag now. The problem is Anet's plan failed for several reasons:

1. Some PvE players are still whining that PvP is at fault for the current inbalance

2. The game has arguably never been more inbalanced than now. The game has more periods of balance BEFORE the split in both PvP and PvE

3. Anet is rarely using the split to better balance PvE or PvP and players on both sides know this

So its time to accept the facts that Anet is just crap at balance and always has been. It is very likely that they always will be this way as well, because the majority of the players could CARE LESS about balance, and Anet is brilliant at catering to the majority. Anet has catered to PvE players, but if you are a PvE player who cares about balance, you are shit out of luck because you are in the minority. Welcome to the club PvP players have been in for years. Hope you enjoy your stay.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

In fact the described situation is part of why PvE is so unbalanced. I rather have an acceptable AI and a randomly chosen set of skills on the enemies then overpowered enemies, where you have to know them in and out or you can´t enjoy the game.

Ok forget my earlier statement about you...you said one thing correct and this is it. Congrats! =D

Quote:

Originally Posted by FalconDance

This type of thread usually, I've noticed, ends with the PvP oriented folks screaming defensively how "easy" PvE and how challenging PvP is, so we PvEers should all shut up and accept whatever crumbs sprinkle on our tables silently. In four years, however, I've never noticed the game to be ridiculously easy,

If you never noticed the game to be ridiculously easy, then I hate to tell you but you aren't very good. This is particularly true when things like Ursan were around, when I sometimes played with some of my newb friends who were able to use Ursan to roll through areas that used to be at least somewhat challenging. It still continues to this day though...the game is just plain easier today than it used to be and things like THK being a cakewalk are a testament to that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FalconDance

PvPers want to see how "easy" PvE is? Take a character through Prophecies HM with Prophecies only skills. No cheating. No heros. No skills from other campaigns or expansion. No PvE only skills. Just what you get or purchase along the way. You can buy any skill you want as long as it's Prophecies or Core only. In fact, you could really prove yourself elite and only use the insignia and runes that were originally available. Go ahead. Take the challenge and see how easy PvE is now that skills have been changed to "balance" PvP.

Besides the fact that I could probably do your scenario in a day or two, what you suggest has nothing to do with balance. You are using the classic "limit yourself to make the game harder" argument, which is not a good one. I should not have to gimp myself to make a game challenging. Every good game in the history of video games knows this. There is a thing called depth, where a player should be able to grow with the game using what the game gives them to do so. If I am limiting my options, I am not playing the game the way it is supposed to be played. If I have to limit my options to make a game interesting, that is not a game I want to be a part of.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FalconDance

In an attempt to bring the two play styles, indeed the two separate games!, into accordance, Guild Wars has fatally erred. Yet they refuse to separate the two to the benefit of both.

I'd argue that bringing the two sides together was the best part of Guild Wars...but thats beside the point. I hope you read my bolded point above...they DID separate the two.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FalconDance

Dreamwind, why do you consider what PvErs say "garbage" whilst what PvPers say (apparently) is not? Are we not allowed to have and express our opinions from the different viewpoint? Have you played the game as originally released or are you a PvP player solely or primarily?

You got it all wrong. I only consider some of the posts in this thread garbage. I don't consider what all PvErs say garbage and all PvP players say gold. Why? Because I play PvE...well at least I used to. I played PvE like crazy in Prophecies/Factions. Many of my "PvP friends" today are PvE players. In fact many of my "PvP friends" have many max PvE titles and one of them has almost every PvE accomplishment in the game. These people simply call themselves "PvP players" because that is what they enjoy most...it doesn't mean they don't play PvE. People need to get over this "PvP player" or "PvE player" mentality. Most players play a little of both. Even Regina fell into that trap recently in one of her interviews.

But lets get back to the point. The only reason I even made this stupidly long post (other than the fact that I am bored off my ass currently) is because you asked me a question. Now let me ask you one...what would you nerf in PvE? How would you balance the PvE game? How about the PvP game? You don't have to answer the last one if you don't play PvP. The main reason I made this post is because I am tired of people blaming somebody other than Anet for the game inbalance, and I am tired of people who have no concept of balance proclaiming that they want a balanced game while giving awful ideas that suggest they don't want balance at all.

Back then · May 10, 2009, 06:54 PM // 18:54

lol he spent and hour writing that and no one is going to read it/care.

FalconDance · May 10, 2009, 07:34 PM // 19:34

Quote:

What we have in PvP now is whenever Anet makes a balance change, they always screw it up so one build becomes so dominant that you are stupid if you play anything else.

I quote this because, if you substitute PvE for PvP, you are saying exactly the same thing as we PvErs are!

When I said to go through Prophecies using only original skills, etc., I wasn't suggesting that you limit yourself for limitation sake. Many if not most people do not remember or do not know what the game played like before Factions and the beginning of the skills separation, before the over-usage of heros, before the insignia system. Many simply would not be able to play without these props. Doesn't make those of us who pre-date the changes elite necessarily, but it does cause us to have a completely different outlook on the game from a PvE (and perhaps, PvP) stance.

Personally, I have 15 characters over two accounts. One account has all campaigns and the North. Those girls are nearly all fully evolved. The other account is a Prophecies only one which my son just gave me. It is oddly refreshing to have a smaller pool of skills available. I'm sure I'll find reliance on henchmen frustrating (when guild or alliance members aren't around), but I completed the game four years ago with Alesia struggling to learn her trade, so I imagine I can do it again.

Quote:

If you never noticed the game to be ridiculously easy, then I hate to tell you but you aren't very good. This is particularly true when things like Ursan were around, when I sometimes played with some of my newb friends who were able to use Ursan to roll through areas that used to be at least somewhat challenging. It still continues to this day though...the game is just plain easier today than it used to be and things like THK being a cakewalk are a testament to that.

Husband and I were talking about this recently. We can remember when missions like THK and Hell's Precipice took multiple tries, especially if you wanted the bonus. Now it is a cakewalk, as you say. But how much of that is the game itself being easy and how much is your (or our) experience playing the various professions and skills to the point that now we're good players, not merely struggling newbies trying to get through the game for the first time?

And just for the record, I still don't get all the whining about the Ursan "nerf". Husband still uses it on ocassion with no difficulty - just requires more skill instead of plain dumb button pushing.

How would I nerf the PvE game? Keeping in mind that I bring a lot of flamage to myself with the following, I'd likely eliminate the PvE only skills. Yes, they're nice. Yes, I use some of them regularly. But with a few of them being seriously relied on and the others totally useless with previous nerfs, why bother having them anymore? If you can't fix them all, lose them. Do not accentuate any given skill over all others (a tall order, I realize). Example: Shadow Form is still doable as long as you run a full 16 in SA (and quick on the buttons) but whether through design or happenstance, it's the only way an assassin can get into a party in many places. 'Sins have many other decent skills but this one gives them a value that no other class enjoys. Some would argue that Dervishes have made warriors obsolete due to their near-AoE scythe strikes, but warriors can also access many of those same skills....by equipping a scythe. I enjoy playing a damage dealing Monk (not a "smiter" in the GW sense) as well as a Healer and can remember when a smiter had a much stronger set of skills to use. Now, Heal is stronger but if you're not running Healer's Boon, forget getting into a party (of course, used to be that way with Word of Heal). If you're smiting, you'd best have RoJ or you're not allowed in a group, either. It's ludicrous that one or two skills can make the difference regardless of how well a player plays.

The foe should have the same health and energy regeneration that could be expected from a well-skilled and experienced player with the player-available buffs. How many times have you gone against a boss who has what seems to be an endless supply of energy or extraordinary regeneration? Can anyone confirm that they do or do not experience dp like we do with the accompanying reduction in hp and energy? (I read in wiki earlier that one particular boss had an estimated 10,000hp. Haven't confirmed that and can't remember at the moment which one it was, but that is ridiculous!) Challenge is one thing; it is not challenge to pit a Chihuahua against a Great Dane and expect it to be a fair fight.

I'd also make a change that I have no idea how to implement at this point. In prophecies, assuming you play through the campaign without simply being run early on to Droknars and buying max armor and skills, you have no access to elite or stronger skills until relatively late in the game. In Factions and Nightfall, elites are available much earlier, comparatively speaking. I realize that Prophecies has a much longer build-up time to endgame, and perhaps this accounts for the difference. But it seems to me there is an inequity there that skews the game (if you have more than one campaign).

But then again, I also remember when having elite armor meant you'd accomplished something besides being run somewhere at a low level.

As to PvP, I'll be honest. The only PvP I enjoy is Jade Quarry and a very ocassional Zaishen something. But even in JQ, while I notice some very efficient builds being used (a couple combinations I'd not think to mix normally), I also see essentially the same builds used over and over. There's very little innovation and i think that's because, as I've mentioned, in PvP you're always up against lvl 20s with the same basic reflexes and skills as yourself. They have a predictable energy and health regeneration that roughly matches your own as well as a set number of skills they may choose from within their dual classes. You have a reasonable expectation of the skill level you oppose. This is not so in PvE and yet both sides of the game are given, in large part, the same skills with which to counter the foe, be it "monsters" or opposing PvPers.

Back then: if no one else reads DreamWind's post or cares, I do.

Tearz1993 · May 10, 2009, 07:35 PM // 19:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

I am tired of people blaming somebody other than Anet for the game inbalance, and I am tired of people who have no concept of balance proclaiming that they want a balanced game while giving awful ideas that suggest they don't want balance at all.

This.

I think one of the best points brought up in his post (only read part of it, but still) was that ANet's skill balancing was originally focused primarily on PvP, but now that there is the PvP/PvE split, PvEers are finally starting to realize what PvPers have been enduring.

Esprit · May 10, 2009, 07:38 PM // 19:38

Some people are posting valid comments, but it seems most are just veiled attacks.

Seems this thread has served its purpose and can be put to rest?

DreamWind · May 10, 2009, 08:48 PM // 20:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by FalconDance

I quote this because, if you substitute PvE for PvP, you are saying exactly the same thing as we PvErs are!

Fair enough. Anet hasn't done a good balance job in PvE or PvP. I just dislike when people say the problems of PvE are because of PvP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FalconDance

Many if not most people do not remember or do not know what the game played like before Factions and the beginning of the skills separation, before the over-usage of heros, before the insignia system. Many simply would not be able to play without these props.

I don't mind the addition of things that make the game more convient, but I dislike when Anet adds things that are basically a crutch for the player. It is a disservice to the game and the player.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FalconDance

We can remember when missions like THK and Hell's Precipice took multiple tries, especially if you wanted the bonus. Now it is a cakewalk, as you say. But how much of that is the game itself being easy and how much is your (or our) experience playing the various professions and skills to the point that now we're good players, not merely struggling newbies trying to get through the game for the first time?

I've heard this before...but I think we underestimate just how much stronger our characters are now. We have much better skills, heros are much better than hench, we have more hitpoints, defense, energy, runes, insignias, PvE skills and consumables, etc etc. Yes we have gotten better skilled, but I think the power creep of the game overwhelms that. A newbie getting into the game today would have a much easier time with THK than we had when we were newbies. All the while the enemies have remained the same power level.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FalconDance

How would I nerf the PvE game?... *suggestions*

As to PvP, I'll be honest. The only PvP I enjoy is Jade Quarry and a very ocassional Zaishen something.

Back then: if no one else reads DreamWind's post or cares, I do.

I found your suggestions much more reasonable than many others I've heard. I agree with some of them even. I'm just not very confident in Anet's ability to balance these things...as good as they are at many other things. I go by my past PvP experiences to make that judgement. I suppose we can only wait for the update.

Thanks for reading my post and caring though.

Skyy High · May 10, 2009, 09:51 PM // 21:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by FalconDance

How would I nerf the PvE game? Keeping in mind that I bring a lot of flamage to myself with the following, I'd likely eliminate the PvE only skills. Yes, they're nice. Yes, I use some of them regularly. But with a few of them being seriously relied on and the others totally useless with previous nerfs, why bother having them anymore? If you can't fix them all, lose them.

Not happening. Sorry, it's just not. ANet isn't going to simply delete a portion of the game that they spent time on, and that so many people use right now. I don't disagree that the game is much more easy because of them, but people really need to get some reasonable expectations.

Quote:

Do not accentuate any given skill over all others (a tall order, I realize).

Pretty much impossible. There are simply too many skills, and too many of them have niche functions. Incidentally, this is part of the reason behind GW2: there are just too many skills to balance where every skill is viable on an 8-slot bar. The 8 skill slot bar isn't going anywhere, so the only real option is to reduce the total number of skills.

Individual cases like the following, though...

Quote:

Example: Shadow Form is still doable as long as you run a full 16 in SA (and quick on the buttons) but whether through design or happenstance, it's the only way an assassin can get into a party in many places. 'Sins have many other decent skills but this one gives them a value that no other class enjoys.

...should be handled on a case-by-case basis. Perma-SF needs to die before anyone says anything about "PvE balance" without laughing.

Quote:

Some would argue that Dervishes have made warriors obsolete due to their near-AoE scythe strikes, but warriors can also access many of those same skills....by equipping a scythe. I enjoy playing a damage dealing Monk (not a "smiter" in the GW sense) as well as a Healer and can remember when a smiter had a much stronger set of skills to use. Now, Heal is stronger but if you're not running Healer's Boon, forget getting into a party (of course, used to be that way with Word of Heal). If you're smiting, you'd best have RoJ or you're not allowed in a group, either. It's ludicrous that one or two skills can make the difference regardless of how well a player plays.

I really haven't seen that much build discrimination from the PUGs forming to do Zquests. I never run HB, incidentally, and no one says anything. BTW, prot > heal.

Quote:

The foe should have the same health and energy regeneration that could be expected from a well-skilled and experienced player with the player-available buffs. How many times have you gone against a boss who has what seems to be an endless supply of energy or extraordinary regeneration? Can anyone confirm that they do or do not experience dp like we do with the accompanying reduction in hp and energy? (I read in wiki earlier that one particular boss had an estimated 10,000hp. Haven't confirmed that and can't remember at the moment which one it was, but that is ridiculous!) Challenge is one thing; it is not challenge to pit a Chihuahua against a Great Dane and expect it to be a fair fight.

Your analogy is flawed for the following reason: relatively speaking, the chihuahua in question is a Mensa member wielding a Bone of GreatDaneSlaying, and the great dane eats paint chips. Yeah, the great dane is bigger, but he's dumb as hell, and the chihuahua knows in advance what he's fighting and can prepare specifically for it. Monsters don't slot in skills depending on what the player brings, but you can. Know you'll be facing high-powered ele bosses? Bring a shutdown mesmer or ranger with BHA, you're golden. Know the coming mission doesn't have much corpses, but has a lot of melee mobs? Swap out your MM build for a weakness and curses spreading build.

The day that PvE mobs have random, good builds that are equal in strength to those players can bring (ie, 8 skills, balanced synergistic parties, intelligent use of skills), you can argue that their superior stats are OP. Until that time, it's just like DreamWind said, PvE balance is broken open by the fact that the player can plan ahead for the area he's about to face. Insane mob stats don't even come close to making up for that advantage.

Quote:

I'd also make a change that I have no idea how to implement at this point. In prophecies, assuming you play through the campaign without simply being run early on to Droknars and buying max armor and skills, you have no access to elite or stronger skills until relatively late in the game. In Factions and Nightfall, elites are available much earlier, comparatively speaking. I realize that Prophecies has a much longer build-up time to endgame, and perhaps this accounts for the difference. But it seems to me there is an inequity there that skews the game (if you have more than one campaign).

You're also not level 20 until the end of the game in Prophecies, and neither are the mobs. You get access to elite skills around the time the player should be level 17-20, in all games, it just so happens that more of Factions and NF is lvl20 content, compared to Prophecies. I don't see how that's an "inequity", it just means that Prophecies is kinder to newbies. It shouldn't matter one way or the other to a player playing HM, because once you can play HM you've beaten the game and have access to any elite you want.

haggus71 · May 10, 2009, 10:07 PM // 22:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alleji

Oh really? Watch this:

Peace and Harmony
Elite Spell 5e, 3/4 cast, 8 recharge
Att: Divine Favor
Remove 0...2...3 conditions and 0...2...3 hexes from target ally (3 at 13 DF).

Wow, did you see that? I just balanced a skill! Didn't need the least bit of programming knowledge for that. Now just need a coder to adjust those numbers... who can be a different person. Durr.

Congrats. You made a Divine Favor version of [skill]Divert Hexes[/skill], only with no health benefit, 5 less E, 1/4 sec shorter cast, and longer recharge time. Durr.

They have to take all skills into consideration, and see how what they do to a skill reacts to the rest of the meta. I sure as hell don't think I could do the job, so I wouldn't assume to tell them they can't.

My point isn't that suggestions on or criticism of certain skills is bad. Stroking your id(Ego is the balance of the id and superego. Psy101 ftw.) saying you could do a better job than them with 5 minutes of thinking is bad. There are plenty of people(I'm not one, obviously) on here whose ideas I'm sure the devs take into consideration when they make these adjustments. Besides, there's a Naval expression that when you piss both sides off, it's a good compromise. Judging from this thread, they are doing a damn good job.

And I was just making a point on the fact that, if you eliminate one Imba build, with the number of skills, there will be something that will move in to take its place. The only way to prevent builds from being the meta would be to kill all the skills, which would lead to a game of a monkeys throwing feces at each other.

Hmmm....

Wish Swiftdeath · May 10, 2009, 11:07 PM // 23:07

5 less energy is great, 10 energy for a monk is quite alot. 1 second is easily twitched, 3/4 you have to get closer to twitch. PaH also removes conditions and reduces the duration of conditions applied in the next few seconds. Conversely divert hexes removes 3 hexes. Yep that's it, if you don't face hexes then it's a completely wasted elite.

Dreamwind i think said it all

Kashrlyyk · May 10, 2009, 11:32 PM // 23:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

... Your argument is essentially that a balanced game makes PvE more difficult, and then make a leap in logic that that difficulty is a negative effect caused by outside influences.

No, my argument is that balancing PvP does NOT automatically balance PvE!

Quote:

Originally Posted by FalconDance

(I read in wiki earlier that one particular boss had an estimated 10,000hp. Haven't confirmed that and can't remember at the moment which one it was, but that is ridiculous!)

N.O.X. has around 60000 hp.

Bryant Again · May 11, 2009, 01:58 AM // 01:58

I'm just glad GW has max level PvP characters. It may not help the balance too much, but at least it cuts down the whining by about 500%.

It also gives them a much less biased amount of feedback, but ANet didn't make the most out of that gift with GW1.